Welsh Journals

Feb., 1872. BYE-GONES. 29 blazoned thus -.—Argent, three lions passant, reguardant, with their tails coming between their legs and turning over their backs, gules. Readers of Bye-gones will observe this is a different coat to the one S. has assigned, on the authority of Camden, to Rhodri Mawr. These arms are so borne on the Great Seal of Prince "Ed¬ ward, afterwards Edward V., when Prince of Wales, and when he reuided in Ludlow Castle, and also on the great Seal of Prince Arthur, eldest son of Hen. VII., who resided in Ludlow Castle as Prince of Wales, with his consort, the Princess Catherine of Aragon. These arms are also thus em¬ blazoned ina M S. of Sir William Segar, Garter Principal King of Arms, Temp Jac. I. (Harl. MSS. Brit. Museum, 6085), as well as in a MS. in the collection at Goodrich Court, and in another marked L. 14 in the Herald's Codege. These bear¬ ings are also found on the hilt of the sword of the Earldom ■of Chester, belonging to Prince Edward, son of Edward IV., now in the British Museum (Arch. xxxi. p. 869, note 7). . . ..........The Rev. Joseph Hunter, in his learned paper on the " Heraldry of the Monuments of Queen Elizabeth in Westminster Abbey" (Arch. Canib. I., second series, p. 199, et seq.), assigns a shield on the basement charged with four lions passant as the Arms of " Wales." From the emblazonry, however, of the two great Seals of the Princes Edward and Arthur, in the latter portion of the fifteenth century—we find that this idea is errone¬ ous as is further proved by Mr Rouge Dragon King in this manner. (2)—In the MS, L. Coll. Arms; three other Shields are given bearing as follows, viz, North Wales or Gwtnedd.— Quarterly gules and or. four Lions, passant guardant coun¬ tercharged. . This is the Shield which our association (i.e. the Arch. Camb. Society) has erroneously assumed for the Shield of Wales in the title page of this journal, partly on the suggestion though not without the doubts of those two excellent Heralds and Antiquaries, Sir S. R. Meyrick and Thomas Willement, Esq. Powysland, or a lion Rampant Gules. South Wales or Dyfed : Gules three chevrons argent. (8)—In a MS. (294 Coll. Arms) a shield of arms is set forth for Queen Elizabeth, containing those of the Saxon Princes (Edward the Confessor?) over which on an escutcheon of pretence are those of Rhodri Mawr, blazoned as above, quarterly,with those of North Wales, also blazoned as above. Mr King fun her points out the fact that these arms as here assigned to North Wales, were those actually borne by Iorwerth Drwyn-dwn ; quoting in proof a passage from the History of Fulke Fitz Warine, which has been subsequently published by the Warton Club, and reviewed in our own pages, "A Taunt vynt Jerwerd armee dont les armesfurent de or a de goules quarty U e en chesciun quarter un leopart. " It remains for Heralds to ascertain what authority there may be for the armorial bearings of Rhodri Mawr, and possibly without plunging into the abyss of myths and conjectures some¬ thing may be discovered to throw light on this dark part of the subject. It certainly would be desirable that the armorial bear¬ ings of the present Prince of Wales should be correctly emblazoned, and that the supposition crest of the feathers should be exchanged for that which is true to Heraldic authority and Historic fact. Another correspondent, the Rev. W. Basil Jones, now Dean of York, in commenting upon the paper of which the above is an extract, asks <Fif anybody in the nineteenth century supposes that Rhodri Mawr as a historical fact bore arms and he says:—However, one fact is patent, that the arms assigned to Rhodri Mawr were actually borne by the Plantagenet and Tudor Princes of Wales. But the question is whence they were derived. That they were assigned by Mediaeval Heralds to Rhodri is extremely probable, that they were actually borne by him (I think) morally impossible, nothing is easier than to assign arms............. • ; • • • • and in the present instance I am inclined to think that they, the old Heralds, first gave to Rhodri Mawr the Arms borne by the Princes of Wales in their own day. It is only a wonder they did not give him the ostrich feathers. But where did the three Lions passant reguardant" with their tails in a knot come from I confess, it seems to me most probable, that they are neither more or less than the Arms of England, differenced by an alteration of posture of the Lion=, an i by the tinctures. It is (I believe) pretty well known that before the introduction of the various marks of Cadeney, tw. branches of the same house were frequently distinguished by some such difference in their common bearing. The interest felt in, and importance of the subject, must form my apology for this lengthy reply,—Edromo. Cyffin will see that we have only given a portion of his Reply about Seventh Sons. The remainder will form a Note about ' Hooping Cough' another week. J F. is thanked for his courtesy, and, probably one day, we may be glad of his information. The Moon's Influences.—One or two correspondents have arked why the Nota about Llansaintffraid (O A., Jan. 24,1872), was headed 'Lunatic Influences in Wales,' instt ad of 'Lunar' Influences. Simply because Lunacy implies "A kind of mad¬ ness formerly supposed to be aff< cted by the Moon," and a man must be lunatic who believes as those do who act as Cyffin so graphically describes. ' Lunar' influences, on the other hand, ore those actually caused by the Moon. Oswestry Advertizer, Feb. 7, 1872. NOTES. DEATH TOKEN IN WALES.—Howells, in his Cambrian Superstitions, says that in several parts of Wales it has happened that a small portion of land in a field, although ploughed and manured several times, would not produce anything; this was called Grwn, and was ima¬ gined to be a token of death, or of some disaster in the family to whom the farm belonged. A somewhat similar superstition exists in some parts of Montgomeryshire, namely, that if a farmer should accidentally skip a'' Butt" in sowing a field, that foreboded the death of some mem¬ ber of the family. Perhaps some readers of Bye-gones may be able to say if this idea is general, or if they have heard the application of the word Grwn in the sense stated by Howells. —Edromo. DEATH FROM JOY.—In 1558, on the accession of Queen Elizabeth, Edward Burton, of Longner, Salop, died of jny, and his body being refused interment at St. Chad's, Shrewsbury, was buried in the grounds of the family residence, Longner. QUERIES. WAS OWEN BROGYNTON LORD OF EDEYR- NION?—The History of Oswestry, by Cathrall (p. 266), says that " Castell Brogyntyn,*' from which Porkington derived its name, was a " fortress of the celebrated Owen Brosynton, a natural son of Madog ab Meredydd ab Bleddyn, prince of half Powys, and who, as a gift from, his father, enjoyed the title of Lord of Edeirnion and Dinmael." How is this statement to be reconciled with an original charter, now at Rhug, which has been lately published in the Montgomeryshire Collections (vol. iv. p. 21), dated in 1176, from Meredith "films Howel [ab Meredith ab Bleddyn] dominus provincie que dicitur Edeyrniaun" to the monks of the Abbey of Ystrad Marchell? Prince Madog was dead in 1159, and yet in 1176, fifteen years afterwards, we have the best authority for stating that Owen Brogynton was not then " Lord of Edeyrnion."—Ll. WELSH NATIONAL FLAG.—The National flag of the Ancient Britons or the Cymry—can anyone tell me the colour of this flag, and where one could be seen?— G.U.X.